PRESIDENT. Mr Moroccan, she resides in Somalia?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes.
PRESIDENT. What kind of job?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I have a cargo ship, which makes the service from Dubai to Mogadishu, Mombasa, Dar El Salam, and I carry out maritime transport in Somalia. I do not mind most of inland transport, which is very dangerous, because of the gangs.
PRESIDENT. Transported goods from Italy to Somalia?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes, I have used two ships, from Livorno, in the period 2002-2004.
PRESIDENT. What kind of goods transported?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. All heavy materials, such as transportation machines and related parts. In the past we sent packages of pasta, but with the introduction of the Somalis began to buy the paste from other countries.
PRESIDENT. Have you ever been involved in transport from other European countries to Somalia?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No. I used two ships from Italy and now I have this ship that is service from Dubai to Mogadishu, from Mogadishu to Mombasa, from Mombasa to Dar El Salam.
PRESIDENT. How Somali port discharge the goods?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. The Somali ports no longer exist. It only works the port of Berbera. The port of Mogadishu was closed, and then reopened with the arrival of the military dell'Unosom and then closed again. It arrives at Elman, which is 32 km from Mogadishu, and in the harbor; There are boats that ply the beach. I have with me the photos that might clarify logistical situation.
PRESIDENT. There the monsters.
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. What you see is the small port where the boats stop in the harbor; then you can see the barges that carry the service connection from the ship to the beach (there is a coral reef).
Egidio BANTI. She held that activity in the years 1990-1995?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. At that time I worked before with the Italian military contingent and then with the UNOSOM contingent, and I took care of transport for humanitarian organizations.
Egidio BANTI. Active as a transport with Italy in that period?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No. I took care of the transport from the port to my store. I was dealing in maritime transport. I started this business in 2000.
Egidio BANTI. During that time she has met Ilaria Alpi?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I met her on her arrival in Somalia. He was with his manager.
Egidio BANTI. That idea has been done on what has happened to Ilaria Alpi?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. If you want my personal opinion, unfortunately it was the period when the Italian contingent was leaving Somalia, Somali and believed that he would stay to help them. When the Italian contingent has completely abandoned the city, taking refuge in the port and the airport, the city was found abandoned, and it was very dangerous to be in town at that time. I was working at the time for the Italian government, within the American Embassy, and I was building housing for the personnel of the Italian Embassy, which had been abandoned. I had to cross the city to go to work and I was afraid. I even stocks because the city was at the mercy of thugs. I honestly do not understand why this girl has come from the north of Somalia to try a journalist who already was gone. Three days before the general Fiore had given to journalists ordered to return; had been only two journalists of Panorama that were at my house, of which I was responsible.
Egidio BANTI. According to her, it is true that in those years were transferred to Somalia, or otherwise illegal toxic waste from Italy and other European countries?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, I do not think. At least in the area where I was, namely that of Mogadishu, it is impossible. At that time it landed at Berbera, located 1,500 kilometers from Mogadishu, Somalia to the north. There were chartered vessels from these major Italian companies, the Lodi, the Federici, the Montedil. Even then, we are talking about 1987, I had an escort of 20 soldiers, given by the Somali government, because this road was poorly attended. We brought this material, which was downloaded. However, it was sealed container, which came from Italy. I did not go to inspect the contents of the containers and it was my responsibility to do so.
Egidio BANTI. They were rubbish that came from Italy, not from Somalia.
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. In my opinion it was not waste but of merchandise that was exempt from customs. The means that arrived were temporary export. There was now Lofemon, they worked with 175 Italians and more than 1,000 Somalis. The other group had another 100 Italians and 2,000 Somalis. I've never heard anything about it. The road, however, is still there, so a check on the places you can do.
PRESIDENT. Let's get back to today. Points used, which are the ports, are currently subject to controls?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. In the port of Berbera is a government in action. In Kismayo, the situation is different.
PRESIDENT. It was or is in its availability in Somalia, a customs free zone?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Does not exist. Did not exist, with the Somali government, nor is there now, with the revolution.
PRESIDENT. What Italian or foreign transport companies was or is in a business relationship?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Prior to 1990, with the companies on the list. After 1990, I was working for humanitarian organizations, the UN and the Italian contingent.
PRESIDENT. And today?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. For merchants. There are agencies that handle this aspect of Dubai.
PRESIDENT. Have you ever had dealings with the company Messina?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes, in 1990; I was their agent. Scaricavamo containers for Italian cooperation.
PRESIDENT. Claudio knows Roghi?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I know him, he's a friend. We had a business relationship. He sent me the goods, in particular flour.
PRESIDENT. Which departed from the Italian ports these goods? Who was the owner?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. He sent me the flour which was then confiscated by the government.
PRESIDENT. It was not about waste?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, I think not. The shells that arrive in Somalia are thrown into the sea and fished with nets. The barrel containing gas or oil floats, or sinks. It would be unthinkable to bring a huge amount of drums - we're talking huge distances - and then the drums would become the subject of theft.
PRESIDENT. By the case of Asti shows that she was to receive, on May 3, 1997, a container from the port of Livorno, about 32 cubic meters of goods which was defined as "domestic products". What was in it?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. It was about a boy whose father had a store of household items. I sent all the goods contained in the shop after his father's death, to open one in Somalia. It destroyed his shop; the container arrived in Mombasa and then in Mogadishu.
PRESIDENT. He was present as the shipping company?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. It was a shipper of Livorno, which, however, can not remember the name. I know that the whole of this container there were 220 pounds of paint and other household items.
PRESIDENT. During his stay in Somalia has never received the goods directly from Claudio Roghi or its society?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, in addition to the flour and the container already mentioned.
PRESIDENT. Let the photos. This is the photo no. 375. Know these people?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes, one is Roghi and the other is a lawyer who traded in Torre Annunziata shells to achieve the objects.
Egidio BANTI. Jewelry?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. They took the shells and then they worked, did cameos. It was down a bit ', has been at my house for a while, then she met a Somali, he married and moved house.
PRESIDENT. Let's see the next photo, n. 376. Recognizes the people portrayed?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes, the person with glasses is Ali Mahdi. This is a snapshot of the time when we built a barge in Mogadishu, a large barge. Before there were only boats, then with sheet metal and other material I built this kind of pontoon. There was a kind of opening. We also had a small tug which also disembarked material of the World Food Program. The other is a holy man of the Islamic court, then there's me, the person with the scarf is Roghi and the others are all Somalis.
PRESIDENT. We see no. 377.
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. This photo was taken at the start of the construction of this small harbor; before this place was a cliff.
PRESIDENT. What are these objects?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Since we did not have many means to build this port, I took the containers, it would cut the roof above, and threw stones inside. This work had to be done in six hours, because there is a high tide of 9 meters; was low tide when I filled the containers with stones, and when it was high tide was stopped, and so on. I made this pier is 300 meters long. I put on the left side of the large stones, while on the right, where practically came the boats, I made some concrete blocks. However, the port is there, is still there, it's buried, it shall seek the most, however, was not "eaten" by someone.
PRESIDENT. He knows the people portrayed in this photo?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. This is my workshop and the person, if I'm not mistaken, is Roghi.
PRESIDENT. And here?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. This is the warehouse of a Somali who had shovels and other equipment. I remember that, just in this circumstance, he had to swallow a ship containing sugar, and then went into the warehouse of this trader to ask for prices for the dispatch of the ship. Then in reality this ship did not arrive.
PRESIDENT. And here?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Here is the same occasion of the inauguration of which I spoke earlier. In this photo you can see the low tide, and there is no water. Now the port is now buried. On the one hand you can see the concrete blocks on the opposite side there are stones and in the center there are these containers, which practically represented the "soul" of the work. As I said, this is roofless and containers filled with stones; I repeat that it was stones, because if it had been ground would soon dispersed at high tide.
I would also mention a touch of color when these Italians came to Somalia, they always wanted to do a little 'of photographs was what he wanted to be photographed with the gun, he wanted to be photographed with the gun, and so on. In short, it gave a little 'importance, when they arrived in Italy, showing this kind of photographs. In this photo you can see a container resting, and then over filled with blocks, to be almost submerged at high tide. High tide reaches a height of 8 meters, almost at the level of blocks. Of course, if I had a business I would like Impregilo other means.
In this other picture you can see the pontoon I mentioned earlier, we had built. I seem to remember that the inauguration was also attended by the ambassador. It was the first work of a certain size that we did in Somalia. This pontoon he served, until it was sunk, from ships to the harbor.
In this photo you can see the condition of the premises during the low tide. Here we see that we had the first pontoon smaller, and then slowly we are equipped and we built the big one. Now there are more large pontoons, taken from Dubai and elsewhere.
The shovel that you see in this picture serves to hold the pontoon, because otherwise when there is high tide it is likely to be taken away. We also have a caterpillar that holds equally blocked the pontoon.
In this photo you can see the operation of unloading the WFP. Initially we had small boats and then we started with these objects a bit 'bigger.
PRESIDENT. What's in those cans?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Oil. As you can see from this photo, there was a craze to be photographed together with armed men.
PRESIDENT. It is common to see on the coast drums abandoned?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, absolutely not. Mr. President, in Somalia, an empty drum costs $ 12, an empty drum that contained good oil costs up to $ 20, because all the houses Somali drums are used to put the water. You will find everything, but it will not find any trees, empty or full, on the coast.
PRESIDENT. Recently, following the tsunami event ...
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Excuse me, Mr. President, but this story was a big "hoax." I'm also going to see the United Nations, but in Bosaso, about 1,500 kilometers from Mogadishu; it is said that the tsunami has brought some drums on the beach. I think there is, in this regard, even a report of the UN: the organization was keen to carry out the necessary investigations, sending technicians on site, as a result of requests for financial aid from the advanced region that has lamented the death of about three hundred people . In any case - at least according to a first reconstruction of the story - it would seem that it was only a "hoax" to get aid, while in reality the tsunami in Somalia has not caused significant damage, at least in the immediate area in Mogadishu , merely some boats aground on the beach.
PRESIDENT. It has been said that he was interested Roghi flour: why, then, in almost all the pictures we have seen, is always present during the backfilling of the container?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, this is not activity landfill, president. In fact, the pictures relate to the construction of the port. On that occasion Roghi, standing about 15 days in the area, spend leisure time with us, making even take photographs. What you see in the following picture, however, is the small airport 30 kilometers from Mogadishu. The material shown in the next picture is flour or cement. What we see now, however, are oil drums: who should bear in Somalia it would be empty by the thousands. Once consumed the oil contained in them, and after having been cleaned and smoked, in fact, the drums are reused, often as containers for milk.
The pictures show that we are seeing in the preparation of food, activities carried out by women.
PRESIDENT. This, however, is a stock?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Exactly. The difference between tanks containing gasoline or naphtha and drums containing oil is highlighted by staining: the first one is brownish, the seconds to the green or yellow.
PRESIDENT. But despite his assurances, I still see cans everywhere ...
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Probably, they will be vessels containing water. Should consider, president, who in that there is no water, and no water distributors. The base, in Somalia, it is life. That's why each one costs $ 12. All the trucks that go into the bush have at least five or six, containing water, oil or other materials. The one in the picture, however, is building a dormitory reserved for the guards, as can be deduced from the present camp. There lie the military.
Mr. President, allow me to add something relatively Marina: during my stay in Somalia, the small harbor had silted up and for this reason I decided to open a gate and let the water flow. The attempt, however, is left empty, because of the high tides and monsoon. On and off, in fact, the sand was transported away and again was deposited. However, the port is still there, and it is this structure previously set. If you consider it necessary, I could take you to monitor and control the area.
Continuing in the photo gallery, you can see the containers, while in the next photo shows what remains after the storm that led off the top of the port, leaving only the base. If you see, this is great stones. What, finally, is a concrete block which remain hooked the boats at high tide.
PRESIDENT. Douglas Duale know?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I saw him once or twice. He is a lawyer in Rome.
PRESIDENT. He lives in the same area?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. You mean in Mogadishu? I think they are years that do not live there anymore. I know that he attended the military academy in Italy, and I think in Mogadishu came only rarely.
PRESIDENT. Duale told the Commission that in Somalia, are also buried toxic waste. How do you explain that?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. The Somalis speak too much ... It depends on the convenience of the party from time to time in the game ... It depends on the current conflict. Where there is conflict, it is called.
PRESIDENT. Can you explain better?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. He who has never failed in Somalia, who does not even know which side is right now, whether it is white or black, how can you say that they got toxic waste in that area? In fact, according to the conflicts from time to time in place, it is said that everything was more convenient to a part or the other. In order to support what he says, should give evidence Dual, for example by indicating the name of the ship concerned. In any case, I do not think based his claims. Of course they are not for our area, but I can not say the same for the other, not having direct knowledge; on and around Mogadishu vouch with certainty, and even put my hand on fire.
PRESIDENT. He knows the engineer Vittorio Brofferio?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes, of course. This is a letter ...
PRESIDENT. She worked with him?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, he was a leader of the field, a field engineer Garoe.
PRESIDENT. Has ever proposed underground container?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No ...
PRESIDENT. Why are you laughing?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Why have I heard this voice. But it is a "hoax." I would ask him to bury the containers? Who is he? Excuse me, the President, but at the time I was a truck driver; I had the task of taking the goods from Berbera and bring it to Garoe, from the port to the field. I had an escort of soldiers consisting of 20 units, and there was a technical Lofemon deputy to perform customs operations and load the truck: my job was only to take the goods, transport it to the base camp, download and sign the receipts and turn back. Why say "Fregnaccia" look like? I think so. At the time of the letter, Brofferio himself spoke to me as a decent person, fair, an honest man; after ten years meets the journalists of Famiglia Cristiana and it turns out I would have made those proposals and that I intended to bury toxic waste. If it was true then, why ask him? If I also wanted to make such a proposal, I would have made the engineer of the works on the floor of the moment. In any case, make a hole would have been very difficult, given the number of people always there, day and night, and not military, Somalis and not: Can not go unnoticed. It's unheard of! ...
PRESIDENT. Have you ever had conflict with Brofferio?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I do not know if I can talk to. If it is the same engineer that I remember, he had a wife who at that time had relationships with other people. I do not know if it comes to that person.
PRESIDENT. There was enmity?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I do not know, I've seen very little. My work was done by other engineers.
PRESIDENT. The company has always paid Brofferio?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes was the Lodi, right? At that time, Mr. President, I had no direct contact with these people. I was a subcontractor, as I was "little". I am a carrier. Number one was represented by the son of a former president of Somalia, who had taken the job directly from Rome because he was a politician, however, to carry out the work materially had two trucks that were not even his, were owned by relatives. When he got the job he had no means, and then leant me. In those days, who directed the funds to aid Italian speaking directly with the characters of the Government; I was just a carrier, I could not get jobs directly from Italy.
PRESIDENT. He never offered to the company Lofemon logistical support, materials and personnel to the safety of building sites?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, the staff recruited them; had their own special office.
PRESIDENT. Did not offer the security personnel of the yards?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, no, absolutely. There was the FAI and the ENFAIS. The ENFAIS was another ministry. The FAI was Italy, while the ENFAIS was the homologous Somali administration, and at that meeting were present the characters of the government, which made agreements with them. President, this photo can see the road under construction, and this is instead the way over. These are my convoys with armed men. I, in any convoy, I had the gunmen. At that time they attacked me, I bombed trucks, 6 soldiers were killed and 12 were injured. These are my convoys and instead these are the dead which I mentioned.
PRESIDENT. Brofferio, according to her, the accused because he had an affair with the wife?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, no, I do not know. I do not know if he was with his wife ...
PRESIDENT. It can be said to be an accusation? Brofferio did not say what was in the containers.
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I do not know. I was told that Brofferio ...
PRESIDENT. They could contain stones?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I was told that I would have proposed to Brofferio to bury the containers. It's something that makes no sense. As I said, when I took the containers to Berbera had a military escort. There are witnesses, I'll have 200. Lofemon From Berber an official of a certain Camazzini, place the operation of customs as we loaded, the director of this company marked every truck and its container. It was all an organization, and what do I do? Childbirth from Berbera, as well, on my own? It is impossible, this accusation does not hold.
I would like to add, Mr. President, that are available to you in every way to clarify this issue. I am unfortunately ten years have brought up, I'm fighting right and left. Every now and then someone tick. I'm sticking complaints from all sides. Lately, I reported Sebri Asti, who was sentenced to two months, plus the costs of the proceedings. I'm doing everything to get out of this affair. Unfortunately there I represented the only point of reference working, I was the only person who, for better or worse, he was there. I have a wife that Somalia is the grandson of Ali Mahdi and I had a partner who was a nephew of Aidid; I was on both sides of both the other, but my work has always been clean. I worked with the military contingent, working with humanitarian organizations. Look, these are all cooperation organizations with whom I worked; I worked with the Italian Cooperation.
PRESIDENT. He is still working with the Italian Cooperation?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No, the Italian Cooperation is gone. In Somalia there is nothing in the chair.
THOMAS SODANO. Have you ever worked with the Secret Service?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. With the Secret Service worked as logistics. The Secret Service did the services, and then the embassy made me emit bills otherwise. There were bills as an embassy, such as bills and invoices cooperation as core services. I wore them the oil, I was in charge of the maintenance of generators and things like that. I worked more with the military contingent. With the military contingent, unfortunately I have been involved and, as you know, I was sent away from Somalia; Then I returned, but a political issue. At the time, there was a problem between the Italian and the American contingent; in that circumstance was removed and sent to the Italian ambassador Augelli. The general Loi was sent back to Italy, and I, poor man, I followed the same fate, but after a month, with Admiral Howe, are again returned to Somalia. Fornivo performance Italian soldiers, apart from the work I was doing convoys with them, I knew where unfortunately the Somalis had placed bombs, gave information to our Italian. You can ask general Fiore. One night there were two large mortars placed on the Italian military base, and I gave the information; when the Lightning went on the spot, he found the weapons ready. Fornivo information on payment but not as Italian. I am Italian, I worked with Italians, it is logical that I gave the information to save lives Italian. With the Secret Service did not do more.
THOMAS SODANO. She only cared about the logistics for the Secret Service?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Yes.
THOMAS SODANO. I did not understand, however, the point at which he said that only fuels and provided that the invoices were issued in a different way. Why? What was the reason?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. They were the payments. We see that there were separate budgets. The Italian Cooperation paid me as Italian cooperation (in fact I signed a contract with them even storage); the Italian embassy paid me aside (I paid a console), and then there were the security services of the Carabinieri, who paid me cash drawing to another. Basically, I shared the bills. If I carried 10 thousand liters of diesel, 6000 were in one place, in 3000 another and so on, because each had its generators. Each department was autonomous.
THOMAS SODANO. Are you aware of an arms trade between Italy and Somalia? Have you ever been accused of arms trafficking, among the many accusations that have been leveled?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I was asked about the accusation, but the case was closed.
THOMAS SODANO. Refers to what?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. Alleged arms trafficking. But, as I explained, the case was closed. The same admiral Howe - of whom cherish the letters - called me, handing me an apology, and from that moment I came back again in Somalia. In fact, the question we should talk about is another.
THOMAS SODANO. What?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. At that time there was an ongoing conflict between the great Italian and American contingent. The Americans thought that I passed information Italians; at the time, in fact - I do not know if you're aware - the Americans sought the DTE. I, of course, I had to do with the story.
THOMAS SODANO. Have you ever been in the custody of the container which did not know the content of the Services or on behalf of the Italian Armed Forces?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No. The best explain the facts: the Italian contingent was not equipped with a sufficient number of cranes to transport containers intended for them, and for that reason was I go to the port of Mogadishu, then under the control of the American military contingent; with my own means I loaded the containers of the Italian contingent, under escort of military units, and it was the same Italian contingent to show me the destination of the containers. I was doing this type of service. When the Americans accused me of carrying weapons, I said to be ignorant, as ignorant and not responsible for the content of the load acting on behalf of the Italian contingent, the presumption, however, that those - in all likelihood - were containers intended to contain food and water. If there had been weapons, in any case, I would have been unaware, being extraneous issues to my knowledge.
THOMAS SODANO. He has also worked on behalf of the Services?
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. No. Anyway, maybe some suspicions are born for a fact I possessed a warehouse and I had to take care of an aid ship ends of the CEFA senator Bersani. I downloaded a considerable quantity of goods - were all groceries - and I carried in my warehouse, where the drivers of the trucks arrived Italian military deputies to their withdrawal and subsequent transport to the various destinations. It seems that a plane flew over Mogadishu 24 hours and 24 that there was a satellite tracking, from which he could not prove that the daily arrival of numerous Italian military trucks in my inventory, for the reasons I have already explained. Obviously, uploading indoors, it was not possible to identify the content of the material transported, but it was - I repeat - food sent by various organizations. At the time, Italian politics was to bring the groceries in the villages and sign agreements with the leaders of the clan, which in turn yielded weapons. American policy was instead to kill some members of the clan and then take up arms. I do not know what was the best policy, if one or the other, it is not for me to say, however the strategy was the one just described. The results of the Italians were more concrete, allowed a significant recovery of weapons; As a result the U.S., everyone knows what happened in the end. The difference in attitude has led to the emergence of some problems.
CHAIRMAN So, according to you, even the most outrageous accusations stem from this conflictual relationship with the American contingent ...
GIANCARLO MOROCCAN. I repeat, we are talking about the case was closed for lack of offense. A second case, Asti, was also filed. I believe that the truth will eventually emerge and if I get hurt or not or will come to light, Mr. President. I am convinced.
I confirm my availability to the Commission if it intends to pay a visit at the small port of which I have spoken.
PRESIDENT. Thank you and I declare the hearing closed.
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